Lights, Camera, Rescue: The Animal Trainer Who Left Hollywood Behind

Monkey Attack And The Real Risk

SPEAKER_00 0:00

She was bought by a famous rapper for his children, thinking, as many people do, that monkeys are good pets. And when she turned four years old, I had juice in my hand and I wanted to give it to the monkeys. They started to fight each other, and as they were fighting, I said, quit it. And she bit me here. And when I shoved her off, I tore my own lip off my face. And I have no shame in that story. I'm a woman that has been working with primates for 30 years. If this monkey can tear the lip off of my face, imagine what it could have done to a two-year-old.

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Welcome to the Heart of Show Business. I am your host, Alexia Melocchi. I believe in great storytelling and that every successful artist has a deep desire to express something from the heart to create a ripple effect in our society. Here we are on yet another season of my podcast, The Hard of Show Business. And I'm telling you, I'm melting right now on audio only on this Heart of Show Business podcast. You are really missing out. So you better get on YouTube because you're gonna get to see the most beautiful little creature. I am looking at this cute kangaroo who is a baby. He's a baby in the arms of this wonderful guest of mine, Stacy Gunderson. So I have to tell you, today's conversation is one that starts in Hollywood but goes far beyond it. We often see animals on screen and think of them as part of the magic of storytelling, but behind that magic are real relationships, real responsibility, and the real consequences that most of us never stop to consider. My guest today is Stacy Gunderson. She is the founder of this amazing sanctuary that I got to visit, and I'm in love with everything she's doing called Animal Tracks, which is right outside of Los Angeles. Stacy has lived in both sides of that world, working as an animal trainer in Hollywood, and then going on to found this incredible nonprofit, which is dedicated to the protection, education, and advocacy of animals, particularly those that are often misunderstood or exploited. So this is not just a conversation about animals, it's about trust and it's about what happens when passion evolves. So we're going to have a great conversation. Welcome to my show, Stacey. We finally did. Thank you so much. We did, and we love you back so much. You have such a beautiful soul. I know that you started in Hollywood. What was the moment you were an animal trainer? Then you went on to found Animal Tracks long before I ever was old enough to work.

Jane Goodall Spark And Early Path

SPEAKER_00 2:40

So the very first thing I remember was watching Jane Goodall talk about her chimpanzees, and it made such an impression. I wanted with every ounce of my being to do what Jane Goodall was doing. It was what a mentor, what an incredible woman. I told my mom when I was five that I was going to work with chimpanzees. I was always an outdoorsy person. I played soccer and I got to travel internationally doing soccer. And right out of high school, I got into Moore Park College, the exotic animal program, anything that interests you. And I did not want to do Hollywood at all. Hollywood didn't interest me. I wanted to be out in the wilds of Africa. There was nothing that presented itself. And so there was a gentleman named Gary Giroud, Animals Unlimited, who worked at the Universal Studios Animal Shows and he had chimpanzees. And I wanted great apes. And so I went to work. And Gary Girot was a very lovely, wonderful man. He was not a man who was mean to animals at all, ever. I have nothing but good things to say about him. He was good to his people. He was good to his animals. But I will tell you that not all production companies out to make it easy for animals on set, live animals on set. And that's why it's so beautiful that we have CGI taking over and AI taking over. Used to be when people came here, they wanted the animals to do tricks. Nobody does that anymore. So the education is slowly working. I didn't like the fact that animals are treated like objects. And if you didn't want it anymore, you could get rid of it in a multitude of different ways and you could just get a new one. And stories like Chimp Crazy were real. And we didn't know better back then. We thought having exotic animals was great for everybody. And we've learned the hard way that a wild world is a better world. And these animals shouldn't be in our backyard. And since we know better, we have to do better. And so that is our mission here at Animal Tracks.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

I love that. And you know what's interesting about it? Because I got to see that you have some famous animals like the monkey from Pirates of the Caribbean. And the question I have for you is as a producer, I know that whenever we're doing a film and we have animals being featured there, there's a humane society that wants to make sure that they're being properly treated on set. But I guess they don't follow up when that job ends, because here you are having, for example, the little monkey from Pirates of the Caribbean that is sick. Do they forget, like, oh, you've been in this movie, we treated you well when you were on set, but now bye-bye when you're no longer useful to us.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Probably the late 80s and 90s, it was a very wild place. Wild animals were big and they shot with real things. It got cheaper to use CGI. It's obviously much harder. You can't get an elephant to hit a mark and sing opera. So it just kind of slowly evolved that way. By the end of my career, it was almost completely dogs and cats. So there was a great effort to keep wild animals wild and use the dogs. The domesticated animals react differently. Domesticated animals, you can break their spatial barrier. They respond well to people, but exotic animals do not. And so it was nice to see that things were changing. Today, I do believe it's pretty much just domestic animals that you can use on set. And not everybody was a lovely producer like you. So not everybody had to use American Humane. They did if they were smart. I love American Humane. They have such an important purpose. But it was the long bouts of the animal waiting in a cage in between jobs that could be very tedious, similar to COVID, where we were all locked up in our house and couldn't leave. They became a liability because they were too expensive to keep and they weren't getting enough work. And so then it was looking to dump the animals.

Hollywood Animal Work And Set Realities

SPEAKER_01 6:23

What I love about what you do when I came to visit, and I highly recommend for anybody who lives in the LA area, or even if you're going on vacation, you know, that's gonna be one of your stops. It's not just about going to see the Chinese or the Hollywood sign. You've got to go there. What I love about what you do is you have the education part about animal tracks. You're taking us on a journey through the continents, and we get to experience and we get to learn so much about those animals. And I think that's something that they don't really do. I mean, yes, you can go to zoo. I know you and I have spoken about zoos that ain't that bad as people make them to be, but this is high-level where you because we're not just getting to see the animal in a cage, but we actually get to learn where those animals come from and how they're being treated. And we get to see you and your volunteers playing with them and feeding them and interacting with them, which I think is absolutely wonderful. Was that something that you were planning to do at the very beginning, or did it come out organically?

Sanctuary Education And Buying New Land

SPEAKER_00 7:22

It came out organically. I had always done shows up at Universal Studios and I'd been a part of the movie industry. It's really a two-pronged attack. First of all, we have to give these animals who've seen the worst in humanity a better life. So that's obviously our number one. But how do we get people to come here? Because all they want to do is pet. We've been taught that petting zoos and animals want to be pet. So literally, we have to take care of the human psyche as much as we have to take care of the animal psyche. So rather than say, hey, let's leave room for you to think you can come everything. Why don't we take you on a journey? Because you want to do something when you're here. So let's make it as fun for the people as for the animals. And that's really important. We can never forget that people have the final say over what happens to wildlife. And so we have to make sure that we are giving them a responsible position and making them feel involved and making them feel good about what they're doing. And so that is our main message here at Animal Tracks is we're going to take care of you, we're going to take you around the world, and you're going to watch these animals have a great time. And I have never had anybody complain that because they didn't get to poke and scratch the animal, that they didn't like it. So you have to take care of the human psyche as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Yeah, absolutely. And I know what you're doing, having a lot of word of mouth lately. You've had your first gala, which I had the honor of attending. You raised quite a bit of money because I think have a goal to have more land.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

I have great news. We bought 20 acres yesterday. We closed on St. Patrick's Day. We are on four tenths of an acre on my property, and we now have 20 acres for these animals to roam. It is gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

So are you planning to bring more, or are you staying with the current animals that you have? You're giving them more roaming space and maybe more room for the visitors to enjoy and interact with.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Well, you've been here, you've seen that, you feel the love that we have for the animals, but our cages are rather small. In fact, I would call them cages. I would not call them enclosures. I want these to be beautiful sanctuary enclosures where it is the closest thing to the wild that we can give these animals. And so that's what they're gonna get. Big nature, outdoor, beautiful. They're not looking to hoard. We're looking to save the animals that find us in need of. You're seeing a change in people. I know I only look 19, but in reality, I'm in my 50s. And I find people 40, 50, 60, 70, they really enjoy seeing the real thing. And then that they could take it or leave it. And under 20, they don't want to be out in the elements. They don't want cold, wind, heat, rain. They would prefer technology. So one of the big things I want to do in the new facility is I'm gonna have a barn with people stalls. You've heard of heart horse stalls, right? We're gonna have people stalls where you're gonna be able to do technology if that's what you prefer. And the people that prefer to go out and see the real animals can still do that. But we certainly don't want to encourage people putting animals into cages for education. And so if I become a lady with a lot of which I am now, I have six donkeys, then we'll take those donkeys and we'll educate with them.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Now let's talk about the misunderstanding and misconceptions about those animals. You had a very intense experience yourself with a monkey, I think, from Chris Brown, who wanted to have it for his daughter and decided that wasn't gonna work. And then you ended up with this monkey. And most people would have walked away after your experience. Why didn't you walk away?

Why Monkeys Make Dangerous Pets

SPEAKER_00 10:43

It's part of my DNA. I couldn't walk away. I don't have any hard feelings. There's two ways you can get a monkey. One is people breed them in certain states, which I do not recommend. You have very small DNA groups, and there's oftentimes inbreeding, which leads to behavioral issues later. There is taking them out of the wild where someone will take them from their parents, sell the parents bushmeat, anesthetize, then ship them through customs where most die of dehydration. So the few babies that do make it are extremely traumatized. They're given to people who think it's a child or a dog, and it's wonderful until the baby turns three. And at three, it sexually matures. And that's when monkeys become monkeys. They never become a dog or a human. And they love their family. And what happens when a monkey is protecting its family? It uses its teeth and it goes to war. And so let's say the neighbor kid comes into the house and smiles. Now the monkey is highly agitated. He gets nervous, so he giggles. Giggling is like calling a monkey a name. And last but not least, he goes to take a toy or take something from his friend. The monkey registers that as aggression and attacks the child. This will happen 100% of the time because monkeys and humans communicate differently. People walk up to a monkey and smile. You're telling him you want to fight. And if I smile back, I'm telling the monkey we are going to fight you. So right off the bat, don't read the same books. And so this particular monkey has what I think is a form of schizophrenia. She was bought by a famous rapper for his children, thinking, as many people do, that monkeys are good pets. And when she turned four years old, I and her grandmother, I had juice in my hand and I went in to give it to the monkeys. They started to fight each other. And as they were fighting, I said, quit it. And she bit me here. And when I shoved her off, I tore my own lip off my face. And I have no shame in that story. I'm a woman that has been working with primates for 30 years. If this monkey can tear the lip off of my face, imagine what it could have done to a two-year-old. Because it is the sort of thing that I expect. I expect violence from monkeys. So if it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody. From the bottom of my toes, monkeys are not a good choice. And my whole mission in life is social media point out the fact that a dog and a cat is a wonderful choice and an exotic animal. We should go see in the wild. Let's go to Costa Rica. Let's go to Italy and see porcupines while we sit at a cafe.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Catalina Island, the buffaloes in Catalina Island.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

You want to support your wild places and you want to keep exotic animals. Absolutely. Yes, please. So nobody likes coyotes in the desert. Coyotes chase bunnies and bunnies eat baby trees. And if we didn't have coyotes, bunnies would eat every tree in the desert. So we actually owe that coyote a thank you. Coyotes come into our neighborhoods because people feed in their backyard. So if we stop feeding animals, if you feed in your backyard, you've created a restaurant, and the rats and the mice and the raccoons and the possums are singing kumbaya. The coyote comes in to eat them and they dissipate. Dog or cat is sitting there. And once the coyote learns there's easy food in a neighborhood, they'll never forget that. The wolf does the same thing in the north. The wolf protects the trees. So there's big puzzle pieces. The wolf saves the trees, the beaver eats the trees, he creates waterways. And these two animals bioengineer Yellowstone. It's a story people don't understand. And once they learn it, it changes things. And if you like Yellowstone, you like wolves. And if you like the desert, you like coyotes. You don't know it yet.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Exactly. Very interesting. Because I'm a cat woman. And I'm a cat lady. And I wish I could save every single stray cat out there. But we need stray cats as well because they eat the mice. And the road. So you cats. I mean, people in Turkey, they have cats everywhere. And they're very happy. And they get fed and they live on the streets. It's not like we have to rescue and save every single animal. It's in distress. And the same thing for the wild animals. I love what you taught us about wolves. I came to see you and the porcupines and the kangaroos. I mean, it's been so interesting. What I'd love to ask you is there's still a major issue with exotic animal sales and trafficking. So what is really happening that people don't see beyond obviously being taken as pets?

Coyotes Wolves And Nature’s Balance

SPEAKER_00 14:59

It's the fourth largest crime in the world currently. Are many places where generationally they're taught animals are medicine and you're not going to change their minds. But if you come to LAX with a feather or a turtle shell or a porcupine quill, you know better and you'll be fined and threatened with jail. So there are people that are unethical that go out and take advantage of animal populations, which are already dwindling for a multitude of reasons, and will sell you their body parts and tell you it'll give a good Saturday night, when in reality it does not. It finds their pockets. So the pet trade is currently the number one trafficked animal. And they sit in boxes for 45 days at a time where they're almost starved to death. The other animals right now are spiders and fish. They're actually being droned into places. You can stick them in a box and drone them anywhere you'd like. And so they are being trafficked the most. So what happens when you see a spider in pet co and it becomes something that people want? People will go out to the jungle. They'll take every single one they can find and they will empty out. We used to have emperor scorpions in Africa. Emperors became the number one scorpion pet, and now you can't find emperors anymore. So it is human nature to make money as easy as you can. And oftentimes it's at the price of the animal who has become the hot item.

SPEAKER_01 16:25

Do animals reflect who we are more than what we realize or not?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I like to tell people it's so similar, it's familiar, and it's so different, it's dangerous. Let me tell you what's similar. If you've ever been at a high-profile business meeting, it goes number one at the head of the table, number two and number three, and so on. And if number three challenges number two to get close to the boss, there's a fight, right? Number two is not going to give up their position easy. So same monkey. If you have a monkey and you're number one and your monkey is number two, and I walk in and say, hey, I'd like to be number two, can the monkey be number three? The monkey will fight me to the death. The monkey doesn't want to lose a rung on the ladder. That we understand competition, right? We don't understand is that monkeys don't have guns or knives, they only have teeth. So when you simply smile at a monkey, get small for a monkey, weakness is bad. When you laugh at a monkey, those are all bad things.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

So they have their own spatial language. And I think we need to learn that language to protect them and to protect ourselves through the process.

Wildlife Trafficking And The Pet Trade

SPEAKER_00 17:31

The number one thing I see here, I've been doing this over 30 years. And if you are a doctor, a dentist, a scientist, a veterinarian, people would not automatically think they could step in and do your job. Because obviously it took a long time to know what you know. But people think they can walk in and do what we do because everybody thinks that it's an animal, and you walk in and pet it and give it a carrot, and it'll love you. And there's a lot of education that goes into a psychological healing center for animals.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

You've been very lucky to have wonderful volunteers. How can somebody volunteer? I mean, do they need to go through a special training or how does that work with animal tracks? I'm sure there's people who want to have that experience, maybe contribute to it.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I currently have 85 animals, 26 different species, and I need help. Volunteers are wonderful. They make the world go round, but they come from all different walks of life, and some come with experience and some don't. And so we do, we have a beautiful website with a volunteer page. You'll meet with somebody and do it and make sure that you're not being misled. We do want you to be here early in the morning. It is hard work. And if you agree to that, you come and we start to do some training. You start in our kitchen, nutrition is number one. And if you are willing to work in that kitchen to get to the animals outside, we know you're here for the right reasons. Used to do it differently. And the second the people got to see a monkey, oftentimes they wouldn't come back. So we're looking for serious people that are willing to put in hard work and earn it rather than have it handed to them.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Last question for you before I give you your personal questions. If animals could speak to us right now, they would ask of us.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Why? Why are we doing such a poor job? Why do we not take the big picture into consideration? Why do we not understand that if you upset Mother Nature, you upset everything? We have to start there because once that lady gets mad, we're all in trouble.

Volunteering Ways To Help And Closing

SPEAKER_01 19:20

I gotta tell you, now that it's springtime, I need to come and visit you again. But for everyone, you can go and book a tour. It's super affordable, and you would be doing so much good. So make sure you go visit, get educated, and you pack so many people that love what you do. You're growing, you're expanding. So volunteer, donate, buy the swag, take your kids over, take your boyfriend, your girlfriend. You could be without kids and you'll still enjoy it. I know I did. So go visit animal tracks. And my last question, Stacy, how would you define yourself in three words? Inspired by nature. If I were to give you three words, I would say protector, divine, and compassion. Stacy, it's been so wonderful to have you on this conversation. Thank you for everything you do truly from the bottom of my heart. And may there be more people like you out there. We certainly need them. And may there be more people who actually are like me who support people like you. So we have all kinds of people here. So we need more, we need more celebrities and VIP. More board members, more board members for sure. Go check out Animal Tracks. I'll be putting all the links into my website and into my show notes. Stacey, thank you so much for coming on my show. It's been wonderful. I can't wait to share it with my audience. Alexia, we love and adore you. Thank you for thinking of Animal Tracks and keep the world wild. Yes, and I love you back. And let's go wild together and let's keep the world wild. We're gonna go see the Poképons in Italy and Ulmer and Ow. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Heart of Show Business. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend. You can also subscribe, rate, and review the show on your favorite podcast player. If you have any questions or comments or feedback for us, you can reach me directly at theheartofshowbusiness.com